Lead in to Tammy Faye, SD gay pride etc.

This is a response that Paul posted a few days ago on the homosexual issue. Below his thoughts are my response. Let us know what you think!

Paul said...
Howdy from Seattle, Evan. I'm glad to see you guys thriving in every way that's important.So, I have to be the dissenter here on the homosexuality topic. There's a number of problems I see.

First off, your blog is about connecting with non-church people but then you say "thank God XXX is out of the homosexual lifestyle". It reveals the disconnect non-Christians have with the church and the assumptions Christians have about the world. What exactly is a "homosexual lifestyle"? Janece and I just went to a gay-friendly storefront church last Sunday (we're looking around for a church home, specifically gay-friendly churches). It was a normal Protestant storefront church - small, enthusiastic, guitar worship and familiar choruses. Only, it was loaded with older lesbian couples. I felt like I was in a church full of Moms, not some sweaty back-alley gay massage parlor. Being gay looks like a helluva lot of things, including a pastor and churchgoer.

Clinging to the idea that it's some kind of easily definable "lifestyle" because it fits their theological ideas just makes Christians look silly. We publicly proclaim baseless assumptions that are easily disproved by a child.

Second, gay isn't a choice. Period. I have gay friends, and they didn't "choose" anything. While scientists haven't located a gay gene as such, I can say from first hand anecdotes that people who are gay just *know* they are -- from very early ages and in consistent ways, the same way that you know that you liked looking at hot girls when you were a teen. While I'll freely admit that some people choose sexual partners, that simply isn't the case in the majority of gay people's lives. The rule has to work 100% of time or the rule is wrong - simple as that. It just makes church people look weird to ignore the large body of evidence in front of their faces.

Third, gay is, in fact, natural. Many mammals exhibit exclusively gay/same sex attraction and behavior. A quick Google search will show it's well-documented. So it's not "unnatural" in any biological sense of the word to be gay.Fourth, Christians act like the Bible is "clear" and has "never changed". Again, reality check. If it's so clear, why are there so many divisions on so many crucial issues among committed Christians?

The Bible is a murky book about may specifics, and often times we've made up the difference thinking that our current Protestant interpretation in the 21st century is the way it's always been. Far from it. Take a quick walk back through church history. Many theological stances we take for granted now weren't norms in the past. For instance, Leviticus calls lots of things "abominations" that we do all the time -- eating pork and mixing fibers in clothing. Here's a quick Google search - check it for yourself:Google Search for 'Leviticus and abomination'

Either Christians have to stop using that word and passage to refer to gays, or they have to admit that they, themselves, are also abominations for eating that sausage and cheese pizza. They can't have it both ways.

When I got saved in 10th grade summer camp, I did it very deliberately. I prayed, "God, I will believe in you but I will not believe what anyone says about you unless I feel it is 100% percent correct in all situations for 100% of the people 100% of the time, whether now or in the past or future." And I've stuck to that. I've come down on this issue where I have because I've done a lot of study on this, and more important, I have actual relationships with gay friends that have informed my view -- not by what they've said, but by who they are.

Where Christians trip up is making stuff like sexual orientation a central defining issue of whether you're in or out of the Kingdom. It isn't. Like Christ said, your actions - including sexuality - are an outward expression of your inner spiritual health. Like Paul said, if the fruit of the Spirit is present, the Spirit is there. It's an issue of aligning the heart with God and walking daily with Christ. Our sexual relationships - gay or straight - will naturally produce good fruit. If a gay person is exhibiting all of the spiritual fruits and consistently being more Christian than you (which I've experienced a number of time), then who's farther away from the Spirit -- them, or you?

To anyone that wants to make a serious inquiry of this, I can point to where I started - a book called "Stranger At The Gate" by Mel White (more at SoulForce.org).


Paul,
Good to hear from you. Hope all is well with your family. Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on this important subject, especially among Christians. I'll do my best to respond in love and respect. I believe continued dialog is important and I want that to continue between us as well as others I have discussed this issue with over the years. So, let's dig in!

Yes, I am doing my best to somehow connect with those frustrated with the church. Yet in doing so, I have to be true to the Bible or else I’m just spouting my own fancy ideas. And I do thank God when someone comes out of the gay lifestyle, especially when that happens because they have re-read the Bible and see if from a different perspective now.

Whether they chose that lifestyle or not isn’t really the point. And I am open to the idea that someone could “feel gay” since as long as they could remember, possibly even born into that. We are all born into sin, we live in a fallen world. Yet, when we recognize that is sin according to the Bible, then it’s our job to repent of that sin, ask God’s forgiveness and do our best to move past it.

When someone is in the gay lifestyle, they are in it. And yes, it is a lifestyle. Just like my heterosexual life with my family is a lifestyle. It’s the style of life I choose to live. I don’t see the harm in calling a gay lifestyle just that.

I am fully aware that the gay lifestyle is a lot of older lesbian couples, and nice people. Not every gay person wears a leather thong during the gay pride parade. I’m sure that is a misrepresentation of the gay community at large. Just like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson or Jim Baker (back in his PTL days) can be a misrepresentation of the Christian community at large.

Being gay does look like a lot of things, some “normal” but I can’t put “pastor” and “churchgoer” in that category. I have no idea how someone can call themselves a pastor and lead a church of gay people. I’m sure that pastor is loving, caring etc. but I don’t see how they can justify the life of the gay community with the Bible.

With all due respect Paul, I can’t agree with you that being gay in natural. Personally I don’t care how many mammals exhibit an exclusively gay/same sex attraction. We aren’t animals. We are human beings with intelligent minds capable of knowing what is right and wrong. How else are we supposed to interpret Romans 1:24-27?
“Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”
I’m sure you’ve got a “great” response to these verses. Yet I believe the human mind has a tremendous capacity for finding ways around even the most obvious statements of truth. When we read these verses in the context of all of Romans 1 especially from verse 18 on, we are reminded of our sin. These verses speak of God’s wrath being revealed against all godlessness and wickedness. If what is mentioned in verses 26-27 weren’t really that bad, then why is God’s wrath being revealed against such type of behavior?

I believe the "gay" facade is a thin veil for deep-seated frustration. I believe that God gave every human being a desire and need for love, intimacy and connection. For various reasons, often that need is not meet in a person (naturally) through a healthy relationship with their parents. Or they could have experienced divorce, abuse by a family member or someone close. Again, the reasons are varied and real, but the original need for love and connection is now being met in an unnatural way.

The folly of homosexuality is shown in its inability to reproduce the human species in keeping with the divine commandment (Gen 1:28). When God created man in his own image, male and female, that is how procreation works! Here is a crazy scenario; what where to happen if we allowed all the gay people to live together in their own safe, protected and tolerant communities? They would eventually die out or be forced to procreate as male and females or use modern medicine. I know heterosexual couples use artificial insemination also, but that is the exception, not the rule in the heterosexual communities.

What men do with God and his original plan has much to do with their own character, choices, rebellion and life style. And that is true for anyone going against God’s best in any area of their life, including living together and having sex outside of marriage which is unfortunately tolerated in the Christian church.

I believe the Bible is clear on the issue of homosexuality. To me, eating pork or shellfish, mixing fibers etc. is in a whole ‘nother category than human sexuality. In Acts 10:9-16 God made it clear that we can eat “unclean” things today. Eating pork or lobster (in that they are both bottom feeders) may not be the most healthy thing you can eat, but I’m sure people will eat pork, lobster and red meat and live well into their 90’s.

I know you have actual, real gay friends that you know, love and care for. That’s great. More Christians should. But does that make it right just because it is so real to them? What if I told you that I am sexually frustrated in my marriage (for whatever reason, thank God I’m not) and yet since God made me a sexual man, I’ll have to get that need met outside of my marriage. No one would by that line of reasoning. Just because something “seems so right” to a person, doesn’t necessarily make it right.

It is not up to me to decide who gets into heaven or not, whether it’s a sexual issue or not. You said it well Paul, “Like Christ said, your actions - including sexuality - are an outward expression of your inner spiritual health.” I couldn’t agree more! If your inner spiritual health is right with God, then the homosexual lifestyle would not be an option.

I also realize that you and I (and Mel White and many, many others) can go around and around with numerous points we bring up to justify our position. So, I’ll have to leave it up to God to change your heart or not. Meanwhile, I hope I’ve communicated my thoughts to you (and anyone else I’ve ever talked to about this issue) with love and respect. Ultimately it is the love of Jesus that brings people to God.