For all you Californians out there, we all know Prop 8 passed. I consider this a victory for traditional marriage and for what God considers best in regards to sexual relationships. That all sounds neat and tidy until you talk to a person struggling with not only homosexuality, but also how they reconcile that with their Christian faith. Below is a response I received from a good friend. His response is real, heartfelt and needs to be addressed in the church. I'm having lunch with him soon and hope we can continue our friendship and the conversation on this very important topic. Please let me know how you would respond to this, thanks.
"Now that 8 has passed maybe the church can go after the real causes of the destruction of the family like divorce, adultery, child abuse & neglect etc... It is fine to be against gay marriage but the church is never happy until they single out certain sectors of society. Gays are treated like lepers and stereotyped by pastors as fruity, evil people. The hypocrisy is mind boggling. Where is the constitutional amendment to ban divorce? Homosexuals make up a very small percentage of the population and yet are blamed by the religious right for everything. When is the church going to wake up? I go to bed lonely every night. Is that the solution? Christians have decided to prioritize sin and the worst thing you can possibly be is a fag. Even gay people who are not acting upon their "condition" like me are not welcome. It just really bums me out."
11 comments:
Your friend's sentiments are part of the reason why I swam upstream this election and voted NO on Prop. 8. I'm a firm believer that marriage is to be between a man and woman, but don't agree that we need to have a constitutional amendment to enforce it. Personally, I feel like that the church has lost a lot of its effective witness because Christians are more interested in legislating morality than being an influence in their neighborhoods where transformation really happens. Instead of communicating love, and not being threatened by gays calling their unions marriage out of a need for societal acceptance, we exert tons of energy and expense into being fearful of two same-sex individuals and what is going to be taught in schools about homosexuality, when parents should be educating their children about truth, choices and reality.
I also voted for Obama...so you may not want to hang out with me anymore!
Hey Evan,
First, I'd like to give some background info about me. Before becoming a Christian I was a Humanist/Atheist that sought fellowship with like minded humanists in San Diego. But as I interacted with other humanists I became disheartened that the hopeful ideals described in the humanist manifesto (on paper) were trumped by their bitterness and reaction against organized religion (in person). I found myself atop Mt. Soledad with those that protested the Christian cross that was placed there. I remember wondering to myself, "Why are we so focused against Christians and their cross? Can't we spend more energy on making a positive difference?"
I realized that practical Humanism was more anti-religion than it was pro-humanity. That realization really bothered me and set the stage for my birth as a Christian.
I didn't particularly like Christians, but my heart softened when a Christian girl befriended me at college. She didn't proselytize. She simply saved me from my isolation and was someone that spent time with me and listened.
At the same time, my Christian coworkers in the Marine Corps did engage me in a conversation about God. I had heard it all before, but for the first time I was willing to take it to heart. A Marine in my division gave me a copy of the New Testament and Josh McDowell's book "More Than A Carpenter". And I read them.
I read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and I was struck by the humanness and compassion of Jesus. Jesus displayed the attributes that I had hoped to see in Humanists. As I read More Than A Carpenter, I had to make a decision that I had been avoiding: Was Jesus a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord? Well, you know the decision I ultimately made.
So what does my story have to do with proposition 8 and the response of your gay friend? As Christ's ambassadors we do a disservice to God if our condemnation of sin overpowers the message of reconciliation. As the Body of Christ, we are too often known not for our love of God, each other, and our neighbors. Instead, we are known for our judgment, fear and blame.
If I were to meet with your friend, I would focus less on his sexual orientation and the politics of the day and focus more on his confession of loneliness and isolation. If he sees himself as a leper (an object of fear and loathing), then I should look to Jesus' example of how he treated lepers and other outcasts.
I hope that helps.
John Chung
That letter is all the more reason why we need to show love to everyone, including homosexuals.
Christ criticized the self-righteous in the Bible and I don't recall him calling out the "sinners" of society.
I don't want to generalize the church or Christians here. I know a lot of Christians who do sincerely demonstrate love towards homosexuals and do not try and ostracize them.
I don't think we, as people, have the power by ourselves to help people turn from a sinful lifestyle. I think we need to realize that it's God who ultimately makes the transformation and He uses us as His tools to communicate.
(Neil)
Your friend's words are a biting and unfortunately true critique of Christians in general. Though I live in Washington, I consider Prop 8 to be irrelevant. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that acting on homosexual urgings is any less a sin than acting on the urge to divorce your spouse. But when did we make the government our moral compass? Marriage is marriage as defined by Jesus in the Bible, not by the laws of this government or any government. I understand that "gay marriage" scares Christians because they fear the degradation of the traditional family...but "gay marriage" isn't going to erode it any more than divorce and so many like things already have. It is up every Christian and every Christian generation to spread the truth in a loving and grace-filled way from the bottom up and stop handing the responsibility over to government. Let a legal adult will what they have to anyone they want and let people visit each other in the emergency room even if they aren't a "traditional" couple. Marriage is something God ordains.
Evan,
Great blog. Tell this guy that there are a whole lot of Christians who agree with what he says! The Word says that Judgement will begin with the house of God, and we have a whole lot to be worried about (like he says, divorce, adultry, abuse... )!
Have you ever seen the movie "Lord, save us from your followers" ??
http://lordsaveusthemovie.com/
It is a good movie for Christians to watch... very good to get us thinking. The guy who made it goes to our church! I am so glad that you are reaching out to this guy in love, and just being a friend.
Andy
i to in my heart always want to "swim" the opposite direction that "christians" go. seems we always get caught in the joy of the debate and miss the true issues of the heart. (just a side note, a friend of mine is gay, and voted yes on 8. couldn't stand the idea of being manipulated by the agenda that exists among those who feel there opinions are truth and therefore must be accepted as such).
all i can say is if we follow Christ as lord and savior. if we trust in the words He shared as he taught, we must conclude that that our ministry to this world is to be reconcilers of Christ (2 cor.) to this community that we are living. for me, that means love without condemnation. truth without judgement and sharing real grace with each other.
it always comes back to the heart.
Hi Evan,
I read your blog, and thought I'd pass this email onto you. Kully is a co-worker of mine at Apple, and this last weekend wrote up this email/debate against a woman on his random email chain that brought up Christianity and the definition of marriage. I found it quite compelling to read.
I don't know if it will help your conversation with your friend, but Kully struggles with the same struggles as your friend and here was his rebuttal.
~Azadeh
Dear Friend,
As you know, Proposition 8 recently passed in California, removing the right to marry from same-sex couples. This will ammend and write discrimination and segregation into the Constitution. As you may know, this measure passed by only a small margin, which shows that so many of us are ready to see equality in California.
If you feel in any way that Prop 8 is wrong and unfair, please sign this petition and forward this to anyone you can. We can make a difference, but we have to work together.
Please visit this link and learn more about the FACTS on Prop 8.
http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/petition.html
Sincerely,
Jeremy Hecht
To all,
Sorry for the mass forward but I really believe that it is wrong to treat someone unequal just because of their sexual preference. A real Christian should love everyone equally and not have stipulations for reasons that won't ever affect them personally. Even if you don't believe in same sex relationships, it doesn't mean they aren't going to exist. If one of my boys comes to me when they are older and tells me that they are gay, I will NEVER love them any less or treat them differently and I would want them to be able to live a life without laws banning them from marrying and spending the rest of their life with the person that they truly love. I think it's disgusting that prop 8 even got passed to be honest I didn't think there were that many close minded bigots left in the world.....what is this 1962? What's next are we going to make them sit at the back of the bus???
Love,
Jamie
Hello Jamie and Others,
Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. A large majority of Americans profess their belief in God. Of these, most also state their belief in the Bible as the rule book, guidebook, ethics and history book, and the law book as being worthy, and the standard for living. For fellow Californians who believe and trust in God and the Good Book, His teachings and commandments are clear in regards to marriage. Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." (John 15:1). Since you brought up what a "real Christian" should be thinking I thought I would share some things that God's word (which Christianity is based on) has to say about marriage:
Marriage is a monogamous love relationship between a man and a woman. It has always been so from the beginning of time. And this marriage institution was created by and ordained by God, our creator, as recorded in the very first chapter of the Bible (Genesis 1:26-28). Our heavenly father has decided long ago the definition of true marriage. I don't see it the right of lawmakers to change the definition and responsibilities and joys of the marriage institution which God has established in his ultimate wisdom.
. "From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh, so then they are no longer two, but one flesh" (Mark 10:6-9).
Note the terminology "father and mother," also ("male and female" and "man and woman"). Ephesians 5:25 admonishes: "Husbands, love your wives," (that is, man love your woman, in holy matrimony).
The Ten Commandments, handed down by God on Mt. Sinai to Moses for all the people for all time and eternity, clearly spells out, in (Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16): "Honor your father and mother." (man and woman) — the Fifth Commandment. God indeed created Adam and Eve, and they match and fit together perfectly. They are, in all ways, an ideal complement to each other.
As a Christian I seek God's teaching on how to live and act- Again I don't want to sound high and mighty here. I know I am not perfect and completely screw this up most of the time! On a good day I have a proper humble attitude and can see the log in my own eye before trying to take the spec out of the eye of someone else! I am just a sinner saved only by God's amazing grace which he freely offers to all of humanity.
I am not judging against any person. God does instruct us to be discerning. I thank you for your words because I never want to be someone who judges hatefully against another child of God. I am sure I have a lot of room to become more compassionate and I want that.
Love to you and your family,
Aimee Ose
On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Dayna Baldwin wrote:
Who wrote the "Good Book." It was not God. It was man's interpretation of what God wants and said! I'm with you Jamie.
Dayna
Aimee,
Thank you for taking time to put together a well-written, heartfelt, and substantiated response. The Bible is an excellent moral compass for many people and serves as a guide to giving direction on issues that people may wrestle with internally or even have open discourse about. Your cited passages are excellent barometers of where your passion and inspiration come from.
In that spirit, I hope that you are a true disciple of God and you are practicing all his teachings...not just the ones you believe others should adhere to. Leviticus 15:19-20 states "When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean." It must be difficult for your husband and children to not be around you for 7 days of every month, not being able to lay in your bed, sit on the couch or ride in the car with you, or even to hug you. For this I am sorry, but I would never change the State Constitution to ensure that every citizen must do the same as you have chosen to do.
Ephesians 5:4 states, "Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving." Your home must be a model of polite discourse, but I would guess that you're husband has engaged in bawdy jokery with his jetski buddies on long weekends. Perhaps you should discuss this with him. Oh, on second thought, please don't, because the US Constitution protects his right to speak freely. Maybe you should work on amending the US Constitution because it is at odds with the Bible. Good luck with that nationwide campaign.
I must confess, Aimee, that I do not know you because we have never met. I can only guess that is because you work hard 6 days a week and then rest on the seventh as in Exodus 20:8, "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." So that means you and your husband are not football fans either because it is impure for paid professionals to be practicing their profession on the day of the Lord. I can't imagine you'd be supportive of such heresy. You might want to start your campaigning against the Raider Nation because their numbers are many and their passions are deep. The Bible, however, will sustain you in your cause.
Resting in the name of the Lord aside, I can only imagine how busy you are during those 6 days of hard labor. Deuteronomy 17:2-5 commands of us "If a man or woman living among you...has worshipped other gods...then you must...take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death." How far along are you in ridding your community of Catholics, Quakers, Episcopalians, Muslims, Wiccans, Athiests, Scientologists, Methodists, Jews, Michael Jackson, Mormons, et al? Are you still in the planning stages for that? Or are you held back by the fear of retribution from state and federal laws that prevent US citizens from killing each other? Wait, God's law forbids it as well...it's #6 in the top 10. Now what are you going to do??? The Bible says to kill but forbids killing. You should spend 6 days a week trying to figure out how to properly legislate this and stop worrying about who the gays choose to love and be with.
I'm perfectly happy to engage on the Bible's brief and obsequious dalliances with homosexuality and it's admonition to kill those who engage in sexual immorality (which includes any sex outside of pro-creation), but I'm sure that you are already plotting how to kill your friends because of all the blowjobs they gave their husbands before they got married (The dear Lord knows those women don't give BJs now that they don't have to). And I know you don't want anyone to know about your 3-way with Jack Daniels and your college roommate.
Your religion is your religion. Please practice all it's edicts freely and with-out abandon. I praise your ability and right to do that But, please, don't use our legislative process to force your religious beliefs on other people. Especially considering that you do not choose to practice all of your religious beliefs...only the ones that suit you. Our country was founded by a group of old white men who were religious idealogues, yet they still found it important to make a very clear distinction between the separation of Church and State. I still have faith in what they established. I wish you did as well.
In faith,
Kully Mandon
I think that this clip says it all in a great way. It's a very emotional issue, but it's great that Americans can open a dialogue and share. All you need is love...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4xfMisqab8
Equal Rights for Homosexuals
Gregory Koukl
On the heels of President Clinton's address to a homosexual group, Greg points out that homosexuality is a moral behavior rather than the kind of innate characteristic (like race) that justifies special protections. Morally-minded people are losing their liberty to speak out against homosexuality as a moral issue or follow their consciences on it in the public square.
The President addressed a group of homosexuals at a dinner in Washington over the weekend, spawning a conservative backlash. The White House responded by pointing out that the President also spoke at the Italian-American Foundation dinner, so this was not to be viewed as anything special.
Now, I have some difficulties here, ladies and gentlemen, but not at all with the President addressing this group. I think the President is president of every citizen in this country, and if he chooses to address a homosexual group, he is welcome to do so. What I'm bothered by is a couple of distortions I think came out of this.
There are two thoughts that are important to keep in mind whenever discussing the issue of homosexuality in the public square. Be alert to this whenever you're entertaining discussion or debate, or reading about such debate on the issue of homosexuality in America-- or whenever the Ellen issue comes up.
First of all, there's a difference between skin color-- ethnicity-- and behavior. It seems to me this is so self-evident, so obvious, that it should go without saying, but there is much confusion on this point.
When the issue of homosexuality comes up in the public square, it isn't uncommon to equate the concerns for homosexual liberty with the concern for racial equality. This is a faulty parallel because with homosexuality we're not talking about something morally benign like skin color or ethnicity. I don't know of anybody who has made a genuine case for the moral relevance of the pigmentation of someone's skin or for the moral relevance of his ancestry, per se. Ethnicity has nothing to do with morality.
So this is not the same situation as President Truman's endorsement of equal rights for African Americans that the President cited in his address. This is not the same as the Italian American foundation dinner. We're not talking about morally benign qualities that are innate to one's birth.
With homosexuality we're talking about something different. Although some will argue that homosexuality is constitutional, the evidence is not good that homosexuality is in the genes, that they were born that way. But even if it were, we're talking about a particular behavior that most American's consider strange and unnatural, and many Americans consider deeply immoral.
Let me make a point here, friends. These attitudes are not the result of blind prejudice, as is often represented. Most Americans don't think this is unnatural because they haven't been educated properly. Most people who consider homosexuality deeply immoral don't do so because they hate homosexuals. They have principled moral objections. Good arguments can be garnered for the unnatural nature of homosexuality.
If you saw the movie "In and Out"-- though it was kind of a spoof on homosexuality, and especially a shot at those who think that homosexuality is odd-- there was a pretty funny line about there being "in" holes and "out" holes in human bodies. Some openings are to receive things and other openings are to get rid of things, and you ought not get the two confused.
It was meant to be funny (it was), but it also makes a valid point. There is a natural law argument against homosexuality. And guess what? As silly as it was made to sound in the movie, there is a fundamental sensibility to it.
Now, it might be that those who hold such a view are mistaken. My point is, however, this isn't just raw prejudice. It's a principled point of view. A principled and intelligent argument based on natural law can be made against homosexuality that has nothing to do with ignorance, prejudice, or hatred.
There are good reasons to think that homosexuality is immoral, too. Even if I'm mistaken on that fact-- I don't think I am, but even if I were-- at least I could say I'm not simply making my position against homosexuality based on some bizarre, irrational, unreasoning prejudice like those who are prejudiced against a skin color. Instead, it's a principled position and I'm capable of giving good reasons for it.
I can anticipate an objection here. Someone says, "You may think that homosexuality is unnatural and immoral, but you have no right to force your view on us." Well, whether I have the right to force it on you or not is a debatable question, actually. All laws force someone's moral view on another. Regardless, that's not what is happening here. And this is my second point.
This is not about equal rights. This isn't about us forcing our view on someone else. This is about the legitimacy for us to even hold our point of view. We're being faulted for even making a moral distinction here.
More and more laws are being passed in this country to protect people from even the hint of censure about their actions. And so, it was either in Wisconsin or Minnesota, a woman handed a tract to a homosexual-- a Christian tract regarding homosexuality-- and she was convicted under the city's "hate crime" laws. That Christian was forced to go to re-education classes. Why? Because she expressed her politically incorrect view.
You see, this isn't about us forcing our view on them. This is about conservatives and morally-minded people being allowed to express their moral point of view and act on it. This isn't about homosexual liberties; it's about our liberties.
Friends, homosexuals have every right any other American has. I don't have the right to live anywhere I want. I don't have the right to be employed by anyone I want. I don't have the right to marry anyone I want. There are laws and rules and moral restrictions that govern all of those things.
This is not about rights, ladies and gentlemen. This is about approval. This is about a small group of people working to force the majority to approve of behavior that the rank and file believes is morally objectionable.
Yes, I think the President was within his rights to address this group, just like he would address any other group of Americans. But I think he should have put the issue in its proper perspective. He should have said, "Homosexuals as Americans should have the very same rights and protections every other American has."
By the way, they already do. The law affords them all the same protections I have.
"But I can't marry whomever I want," they say. Well, neither can I.
"But, I can't marry the person I love." Well, you can if it's a woman; you can't if it's a man. Neither can I. I can't marry any person I love. If I fell in love with my sister (Perish the thought!), or if I fell in love with my daughter, I couldn't marry them. If I fell in love with my first cousin I can't marry her. You see, I'm restricted in the same fashion. I have the right to marry any woman of my choice who is not already married and who is distant from me in terms of kinship. Homosexuals have that very same right.
But they say, "I don't want to marry a woman, I want to marry a man." Well, what you want is a different issue. The fact is you have the same freedoms I have, you just don't want to exercise them. You want more than the same legal freedoms I have. You want an additional freedom, a special right. Society has no obligation to grant that.
As Americans, homosexuals should have the very same rights that every other American has, but as homosexuals, they shouldn't have any special standing by law.
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