The debate gets deeper

Paul and I are now in “phase two” of this dialog/debate/discussion/disagreement. We are still friends and doing our best to aim our statements not so much at each other but to those who may read these responses and are standing of both sides of the homosexual debate. I do think that whenever possible a peaceful, loving dialog is important. It shows others that we don’t have to fight over theological issues. If Paul and I can dialog with love and respect, that may be a greater witness for Jesus than anything we say.

With all that said, please read over Paul’s latest response to me and I’ll respond after that. Please also feel free to let us all know where you stand on this issue. While homosexuality and the Bible certainly isn’t the most important theological issue people need to be discussing, it is continually being forced to the forefront of our nation and churches. So, it’s important that we have a good Biblical understanding of this issue.

I have excellent books in my office that clarify each Biblical passage and how they are to be interpreted in light of when they were written, in light of the OT, the NT as well as the whole Bible and God’s over all intent for human sexual relations.

Paul's response to my response last week: Evan, I'm sure it's no surprise but I think your response had a lot of problems that I'll cover briefly. But first, I gotta say this.

Discussions like these are usually pointless and end up just entrenching people in their own positions if they don't have "skin in the game" - something on the line. The reason that Janece and I have ended up where we are at on this issue is not just because of some intellectual exercise. It's because we had real people, real friends whose situations we had to grapple with. One of my favorite authors, Frederich Buechner, said "All doctrine was first an experience". The early Christians, St. Paul included, had transformative encounters with Christ that profoundly changed them into going in directions that they thought were were ungodly, even heretical. Doctrine starts with, and is profoundly contextualized by, relationship.

So, to prevent this discussion from being theoretical, I have to ask: Which relationship, what person, do you have on the line in this discussion? For me, it's Brad and Enrique, Sue and Debbie, Pat and Ladonna, Anita, Sue - people that I know love God, live exemplary lives and even lead churches but who have suffered at the hands of society and other Christians.

Tony Campolo and his wife Peggy come down on opposite side of this issue theologically, but they both have rich roots of love and commitment in the gay community, so they both speak out of compassion and deep understanding and actually have something to say worth listening to. Point being: If you don't have a real relationship on the line, theological discussions aren't really ultimately going to mean anything to you and it's gonna be a pointless exercise in hot air and defending "positions", not people.

Down to it...

About lifestyle: No, it's not a "lifestyle". If you're black, you could live a lot of different kinds of lifestyles, from ghetto bling to middle class to incredibly wealthy jet-setting, but it doesn't change the color of your skin. My hetero brother was involved in the sado-maschism lifestyle for a while. It's a destructive lifestyle, but it's very seperate thing from his sexual orientation. Same with being gay. Leather queens aren't living a healthy or godly lifestyle, but it doesn't necessarily change their sexual orientation. Many Christians confuse the two, and it's an incredibly important distinction.

About the "ick factor": The "ick factor" is increased by Christians overlaying their own ideas of what is proper behavior in a sexual relationship on gay sex, but strangely, not on other heterosexual sex. Every Christian hetero couple has their own form of bedroom behavior, some of which would shock other Christian couples if it were known. So, leaving aside gay sex for the moment, who is going to legislate all THOSE Christian's behaviors -- become the bedroom police? If that sounds ridiculous in a hetero context, why do most Christians feel that it doesn't sound ridiculous in a non-hetero context, where fundamentalist publications luridly post all kinds of disgusting "exposes" of gay sexual encounters? In my mind, the perverts in that situation are the fundamentalists, not the gay people they're "exposing".

About dangerous sexual behavior: Like I alluded to earlier, I'm not in favor of every back alley gay massage parlor kind of lifestyle choice. I believe that God-fearing and self-respecting gay people should be monogamous, court and marry in a non-promiscuous and Godly way, just like any hetero. Those relational rules of sexual purity don't change no matter what orientation you are. Just like my brother eventually found the S&M lifestyle to be soul-corroding and dangerous, so I believe that promiscuous behavior demeans and diminishes gay people and makes them less than God intended.

About being "normal": This is where Christians get into double-speak. You quoted St. Paul who used the term "natural relations". Did he mean that homosexual sexual encounters are "against nature" - that is, you can't find them in the natural world and so gays are perverting the natural order? Obviously not, given what we can clearly observe in nature. Like I pointed out, same sex behavior is rampant throughout the natural world at all levels with all species. Then, what did he mean? This is a complex topic, and you could (and should!) research this for more background.

Here's my take: I think what Paul is talking about here needs to be cast in the larger context of the chapter -- idolatry. The key to the whole section is the phrase "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts." Paul was writing to Gentiles, non-Jews with no context as to how their pagan background with it's male and female temple prostitutes and the cultural dedication to self-pleasure and hedonism was supposed to fit in with this new Christian faith. He had to distinguish for them that their new faith was different than the pagan worship. So, he points here to how paganism worships and glorifies self-desire and the human body as an idol, not as something that points to the Creator. St. Paul goes on to highlight same-sex encounters even though it's clear from his setup that his point extends to hetero sexual relations as well.

Again, research this and come to your own conclusions. It's important to do this, not only because of this topic but also because of the discipline of learning how to deal more intelligently with Scripture. Here's a good starter debate between Tony and Peggy Campolo on this:

http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm

Briefly on your other points, Evan:

1) Being gay is a result of an unhealty parental relationship or a "thin veil for deep-seated frustration": Sorry, man - completely untrue. I would take the point if this were provable for every gay person everywhere, but it's just not. Completely hetero, middle America parents (like mine) have gay kids (like my brother). Gay people are no more or less mal-adjusted than heteros. That's not to say it can't happen, but it's much more rare than Christian ex-gay organizations and literature would have you believe. The vast majority of gays have been that way from birth and live as normal of lives as society will permit. The facts just simply don't bear out the premise.

2) Homosexuality is bad because it's not oriented towards procreation: Bleh. Do you and Kelley always have sex to procreate? Then why in the world would you apply that "law" to gays? Sex is obviously as much about pleasure and expression of love as it is about procreation. Historically, the "God commands us to procreate" argument is a pretty fringe one in mainstream Christian theology. Besides, given that the gay community is a substantial minority of human beings, I doubt the human race is in danger of dying out anytime soon. This is a straw man argument.

3) You dismiss Mel White and all of the research out there by saying that you'll leave it up to God to change our hearts when you obviously haven't read the references I posted. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but your response is what frustrates me on this issue. Christians (like Janece's dad) just *won't* grapple with it in a meaningful way, struggle through the Scriptural meanings, let themselves be affected by the personal tragedies that gays suffer. They just close their eyes and stick to their untested beliefs. It comes as across as "I don't care and I don't want to know". Did you know that closeted gay kids growing up in churches have a very high rate of suicide because they can't find a way to reconcile who they are with how they're told God sees them? Did you know that my gay friends have been evicted from their apartments because they were gay? Did you know that if one of a gay couple dies, even if they've been together 50 years, the other partner has no legal rights to even bury or see their partner's body if the family won't allow it? People are dying and hurting because of injustice and the willful ignorance of Christians. We are repeating history, just like the church did for decades using the words of St. Paul to justify slavery, and people are getting hurt in the process.

4) The "homosexual agenda": Paulla, the REAL "homosexual agenda" is the same one as Martin Luther King's agenda was for blacks in America - equal treatment under the law, equal understanding that being gay is as normal as having another skin color. If that's a problem for you, I'm sorry, but I'm more concerned about teaching kids about reality and preventing social injustices. And you also point to another widespread fallacy Christians have - that teaching kids that gays are normal will make impressionable children "turn gay". The facts simply point out that's untrue. Research the topic. Janece and I have gay pastor friends whose daughter is as hetero as they come. There again, if it's not 100% true, then it's not true. Period.

5) The "abomination" argument: I'll close with this because it's a good topic. You're exhibiting the same behavior that I pointed out in my first post. You are saying you get to pick and choose what's important in Biblical passages. You said, "To me, eating pork...is in another whole category than human sexuality". Oh yeah? How did you get to pick which abominations were more important than other abominations - which Scriptures are more important than others? Isn't the Bible equally authoritative in every passage? No? If it is, then you have to live by EVERY passage equally in order to not be hypocritical. If it's not, then the door is open to change of the type I'm advocating because change of views is a constant in church history, even on major issues.

Evan, you pointed out St. Peter and the vision he had about the unclean animals. I want to stress how important that story is to this discussion. Peter was a devout, born-and-raised, dyed-in-the-wool Jew. I can't emphasize enough how much revulsion, disgust, and horror he must have felt to hear God tell him "Get up, Peter; kill and eat these animals." God was asking Peter to do something that ran completely counter to centuries of the holiest Jewish tradition. You weren't Jewish if you didn't eat kosher. You were no longer one of God's chosen. You were an abomination. Peter defended his religion vehemently by talking back to God: "No, Lord - I have NEVER eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean!" He didn't want to be on the wrong side of God's law! But God came back with this reply - not once, not twice, but THREE times: "Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean."

God changed the rules because he wanted to expand the Kingdom. He knew that Peter wouldn't have anything to do with the centurion and his men that came seeking help. He knew that Paul was an ultra-devout zealot that wouldn't have anything to do with the Gentiles. But He also wanted to expand His Kingdom so that everyone could know and experience the Good News, the Gospel. So he had to change Peter and Paul from being Jews to Christians, to change their ideas of what was gross, filthy, and ungodly in order to save and change the hearts of all people. It's a scandalous message, a politically charged and emotional message, but I feel like it's what God is wanting today and 100% in line with the message of Christ - to move Christians beyond their culture and theological and religious tradition of exclusion into the Kingdom.

My response to Paul:

(Paul said)
Evan, I'm sure it's no surprise but I think your response had a lot of problems that I'll cover briefly. But first, I gotta say this.

Discussions like these are usually pointless and end up just entrenching people in their own positions if they don't have "skin in the game" - something on the line. The reason that Janece and I have ended up where we are at on this issue is not just because of some intellectual exercise. It's because we had real people, real friends whose situations we had to grapple with. One of my favorite authors, Frederich Buechner, said "All doctrine was first an experience". The early Christians, St. Paul included, had transformative encounters with Christ that profoundly changed them into going in directions that they thought were were ungodly, even heretical. Doctrine starts with, and is profoundly contextualized by, relationship.


I agree with Paul. I do know people very well who have struggled with this issue. With respect for their privacy, I won’t mention any names. I am different than some pastors in that I have personal issues at stake here with people I know. This isn’t just a theoretical issue for me. It’s close and personal. Hence, my stance on the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality is about the people I love and know and not just a bunch of laws for “those people.”

With every behavior in the Christian life, it’s important not to let our human emotions tell us what we should or shouldn’t do. Just because we deeply love and care for someone and genuinely can understand their struggles and where they are coming from doesn’t mean we should justify a sinful lifestyle.

Honestly, the issue of couples living together outside of marriage and having sex is just as much as a problem in the Christian church as the homosexual one. Both are wrong and both need to be repented of. Both issues have all kinds of emotional and seemingly logical reasons as to why Christians do them. Setting emotions aside, we need to look at the Bible and the sanctity of marriage, relationships and sex in God’s eyes.


Let’s not beat a dead horse on the “lifestyle” label. Homosexuals live that lifestyle just as much as I live a heterosexual lifestyle. Even if they feel they have no choice in the matter, it is still the life they are living.

The “ick” factor is real. I know not everyone is repulsed by gay sex among men (which obviously uses the anus for something it was never designed for) but if you are not, then maybe you need to re-study human anatomy and basic sixth grade sex education. I know that lesbian couples are forced to be creative with sex also. Right from the start God made sex between a man and a woman a natural, easy fit. Obviously we can’t legislate sex in the bedroom between anyone, let alone Christians.

I would go so far as to say that even heterosexual (Christian) couples may want to re-think some of their more bizarre practices in the bedroom and do their best to practice sex in the way God intended it. I also know that it’s not all about sex and I don’t want to over-emphasize that.

I know most homosexual couples are really most concerned with the same thing heterosexual couples are and that is intimacy, friendship, companionship, connection and a life-long partner. So, to emphasize weird sexual practices on either side of the issue as norm would be wrong. Sex is only the “icing on the cake” of a healthy relationship. It was never meant to be the one big thing that sustains a relationship over the years. The “cake” is all the hard work of living together, getting along, raising kids, etc. etc.

Relational rules of purity are important, but I’m only going to apply those to heterosexual relationships because I can’t find a Biblical justification for applying those rules to a homosexual relationship.

RE: the “normal” issue. Again, I’m not going to beat a dead horse here. Yes, St. Paul is talking about normal sexual relations between HUMAN BEINGS. If that happens in the animal world then that’s a whole ‘nother thing. Do we compare our behavior (sexual or not) to the animal world and take our cues from them?

(Paul said)
Here's my take: I think what Paul is talking about here needs to be cast in the larger context of the chapter -- idolatry. The key to the whole section is the phrase "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen.

I’m always amazed out how two Christians can look at the exact same passage and see two completely different interpretations. Any time we “exchange the truth of God for a lie” we are wrong. Right before that, vs. 24 “Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another,” that applies to anyone who is involved with sexual impurity.

The “therefore” refers back to vs. 18-23, all about godlessness, wickedness, suppressing the truth, not glorifying God, foolish hearts that were darkened, claiming to be wise and idol worship. St. Paul is busting everyone here who is outside of God’s best. Homosexuality just happens to be one of the many sins and sexual impurities on that list.

Everything included in Romans 1:18-32 is wrong in God’s eyes. We have to equate wickedness, suppressing the truth, sexual impurity, “men abandoning natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another…committing indecent acts with other men”, greed, envy, murder, gossips, arrogant, boastful, disobeying their parents etc. God is disappointed with all of it and thus revealing his wrath.

I re-read the document from Tony and Peggy Campolo (http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm) and I think the best point they make is that most Christians and the Christian church today does a horrible job of loving those who struggle with the homosexual issue. We can all do better there.

I did say that “Being gay is a result of an unhealthy parental relationship or a "thin veil for deep-seated frustration" and that is partly true. For some homosexuals, that’s part of what got them where they are today. Many others have struggled with homosexual feelings their whole life.

I did say, “Homosexuality is bad because it's not oriented towards procreation” and that is only one thing that does need to be considered. Procreation is one part of sex. When God told us to be fruitful and multiply, you can only do that in a heterosexual relationship. If a loving, monogamous, homosexual couple decides to never have kids, that’s one thing. However, if they adopt or borrow sperm or eggs then they are going to raise that child or children in a home missing the important influence of a mom and a dad. I know there are plenty of kids who are raised without a mom or dad for other reasons, (and turn out “ok”) or may be raised in an abusive home with a mom and a dad, but we want to look at God’s ideal, what should ideally happen. And that is a man and woman lovingly raising their kids.


(Paul said)
3) You dismiss Mel White and all of the research out there by saying that you'll leave it up to God to change our hearts when you obviously haven't read the references I posted.

I did read all the other references plus other pro-gay/Christian websites and am still convinced that nothing I say will change your heart, Peggy Campolo’s or Mel Whites. It’s not up to me, it’s up to God. Until God moves on the hearts of those who misinterpret the Bible on this issue, then there is nothing I can say.

I’m realizing as I finish here that Paul and I can both come up with mountains of research, websites, documents, personal testimonies etc. that support our sides. So I’ll stop for now. (I could list lots of links to websites that give clear Biblical guidance on this issue.)

I do want to recommend two great books I have that irrefutably give a correct Biblical interpretation of all the key passages:
1. The Bible and Homosexual Practice, texts and hermeneutics. Robert A.J. Gagnon
2. The Same Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible’s message about homosexuality. James R. White and Jeffery D. Niell.

I actually think it would be pointless for Paul and I to go round and round on this issue. I’m encouraging all people out there to read up, do the research from the Bible and other sources and ask God to show you what it right.

Thanks again Paul and I’d love to hear what others have to say.

Godspeed my friends!
Evan

Not sure if I want to be a Pastor in Texas

Popular San Antonio Pastor Dies from Lightning Strike During Hike
A 50-year-old pastor from a church here in San Antonio was killed Tuesday afternoon after he was hit by a bolt of lightning while hiking with his two teenage sons, authorities told News 4 WOAI. To read the rest of this article, click here.
(Good thing there are no pictures to post re: this guys death...)

Yikes! This Pastor was only 4 years older than me. Certainly makes me evaluate what I'm doing and wonder if God is planning on taking me home sooner than I had planned.

Some of you may remember a few years back, another Pastor in Texas died. His name was Kyle Lake and he died in a really bizarre way. He was electrocuted while baptizing someone in his church. To read about that story, click here.

So here is my theological propsition to you all. Do we chalk this up to God's providence or just freak accidents? It sounds almost barbaric to say God intended for these Pastors to die this way. Was this, as the insurance forms claim, an "act of God" that somehow needs to be factored in to how these families will now be taken care of? If God knows everything, did he just sit back and watch as one Pastor dies while baptizing someone and the other one gets struck by lightning? Or can we blame these events on the fact the we live in a fallen world, electricity will fail us and we may end up standing in the wrong place at the wrong time during a thunder and lightning storm?

This Sunday I'm preaching on predestination vs. freewill. How do we square Romans 8:28, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,who have been called according to his purpose" with the sudden and tragic death of two Pastors in their prime? For that matter how do we factor in God's providence with the fact that many will chose not to come to the banquet? (Luke 14:15-24, our text for Sunday).

As we all know predestination vs. freewill is a tough topic to discuss. I believe there is a balance and that it really is more of a "both-and" instead of a "either-or" issue. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I continue to prepare for Sunday's sermon.





Not long after I wrote this I got an email from Jennifer who use to go to our church. She knew Kyle Lake. She sent me this great photo of Jen Lake, (Kyle's wife) Jennifer's sister (on the left) and another friend. This was taken a few weeks ago, so all praise to God that Jen has been able to heal and move forward with her kids and friends.

From left: Falcons club owner Arthur Blank, Astana team manager Marc Biver at the Tour de France and NBA Commissioner David Stern

Facing the music: Falcons' front office pushed for team suspension of Vick
By Jim Trotter STAFF WRITER
In their first public comments since quarterback Michael Vick was indicted on felony conspiracy dogfighting charges, Atlanta Falcons officials left little doubt yesterday they don't want the three-time Pro Bowler around the club. Owner Arthur Blank, speaking from his company offices outside Atlanta, said he was prepared to suspend Vick for the first four games of the season.

Greed guarantees specter of corruption in all sports
David Stern has embraced the single whistle theory. The NBA commissioner wants to believe Tim Donaghy is a rogue referee who acted alone, or at least without the complicity of his basketball brethren. Stern wants to believe Pandora's box has a bottom, that corruption can be contained, that the temptation to influence games for gambling interests can be blunted by endless scrutiny and eternal vigilance.

Vinokourov fails blood test; he and his team out of Tour
By Edward Wyatt NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE
PAU, France – Alexandre Vinokourov, the Kazakh cyclist who was once considered a favorite to win the Tour de France, failed a drug test after the first of two recent stage victories and, along with his entire Astana team, withdrew from the Tour yesterday, further plunging the sport into a doping crisis that has eroded the legitimacy of its most prestigious event.

Corporate America shuns Barry Bonds as he pursues homer record
By Paul Elias ASSOCIATED PRESS
9:20 a.m. July 6, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO – Bob Cramer inked several star athletes to lucrative endorsement deals in nearly a decade as a marketing executive for Mastercard International Inc. But he might be best known for walking away from a deal with Barry Bonds.
In 2005, the credit card company called off negotiations with the San Francisco Giants slugger when it became clear that Bonds wouldn't soon extricate himself from a burgeoning scandal involving his alleged use of performance-enhancing drugs. “That sealed the deal,” Cramer said.

Bam, bam, bam, bam...just like that. Four men, all at the top of their game, succumb to the temptation to cheat. If you ever wonder if we all have a sin nature, just read the paper (or look at your favorite news website).

It looks like Michael Vick will miss all of training camp, and at least four games and potentially the entire season. The NFL is having a hard time cleaning up its image. Hmm, young men, tons of money, fame and before you know it, greed and temptation move right in.

Alexandre Vinokourov and his team are booted off the Tour de France. Doping has plagued the tour for years now. The pressure to win is so great that riders have a hard time refusing a blood transfusion. Nothing like a fresh supply of someone else's blood to boost your own rockets and get you over the "beyond category" climbs in the Pyrenees.

Tim Donaghy will not only lose his job, but has managed to slander both his name and the NBA. Pete Rose may never be clear of his gambling charges, you'd think Donaghy would've taken notice. Now David Stern has to mop up after one of his referees gambled on the game.

Barry Bonds....what a mess this situation is. I don't think it takes a steroid expert to guess how he got so big and powerful. Sure, he'll break the home run record, but always with an asterisk by his name.

All four of these men will be remembered more for how they cheated (Michael Vick thought he could cheat the law) than what they were known for, great athletes.

So, how do we mere mortals want to go down in history? As someone who cheated just to get ahead? Who do we influence? What about our kids, our family, our friends, fellow Christians?

"Cheaters never prosper, cheaters never prosper" Imagine that little diddy being sung over and over by a 7 year old girl on the playground. It's just as true today for Michael Vick, Alexandre Vinokourov, Tim Donaghy and Barry Bonds.

"God hates cheating (in the marketplace); he loves it when business is aboveboard."

Proverbs 11:1 The Message

Lead in to Tammy Faye, SD gay pride etc.

This is a response that Paul posted a few days ago on the homosexual issue. Below his thoughts are my response. Let us know what you think!

Paul said...
Howdy from Seattle, Evan. I'm glad to see you guys thriving in every way that's important.So, I have to be the dissenter here on the homosexuality topic. There's a number of problems I see.

First off, your blog is about connecting with non-church people but then you say "thank God XXX is out of the homosexual lifestyle". It reveals the disconnect non-Christians have with the church and the assumptions Christians have about the world. What exactly is a "homosexual lifestyle"? Janece and I just went to a gay-friendly storefront church last Sunday (we're looking around for a church home, specifically gay-friendly churches). It was a normal Protestant storefront church - small, enthusiastic, guitar worship and familiar choruses. Only, it was loaded with older lesbian couples. I felt like I was in a church full of Moms, not some sweaty back-alley gay massage parlor. Being gay looks like a helluva lot of things, including a pastor and churchgoer.

Clinging to the idea that it's some kind of easily definable "lifestyle" because it fits their theological ideas just makes Christians look silly. We publicly proclaim baseless assumptions that are easily disproved by a child.

Second, gay isn't a choice. Period. I have gay friends, and they didn't "choose" anything. While scientists haven't located a gay gene as such, I can say from first hand anecdotes that people who are gay just *know* they are -- from very early ages and in consistent ways, the same way that you know that you liked looking at hot girls when you were a teen. While I'll freely admit that some people choose sexual partners, that simply isn't the case in the majority of gay people's lives. The rule has to work 100% of time or the rule is wrong - simple as that. It just makes church people look weird to ignore the large body of evidence in front of their faces.

Third, gay is, in fact, natural. Many mammals exhibit exclusively gay/same sex attraction and behavior. A quick Google search will show it's well-documented. So it's not "unnatural" in any biological sense of the word to be gay.Fourth, Christians act like the Bible is "clear" and has "never changed". Again, reality check. If it's so clear, why are there so many divisions on so many crucial issues among committed Christians?

The Bible is a murky book about may specifics, and often times we've made up the difference thinking that our current Protestant interpretation in the 21st century is the way it's always been. Far from it. Take a quick walk back through church history. Many theological stances we take for granted now weren't norms in the past. For instance, Leviticus calls lots of things "abominations" that we do all the time -- eating pork and mixing fibers in clothing. Here's a quick Google search - check it for yourself:Google Search for 'Leviticus and abomination'

Either Christians have to stop using that word and passage to refer to gays, or they have to admit that they, themselves, are also abominations for eating that sausage and cheese pizza. They can't have it both ways.

When I got saved in 10th grade summer camp, I did it very deliberately. I prayed, "God, I will believe in you but I will not believe what anyone says about you unless I feel it is 100% percent correct in all situations for 100% of the people 100% of the time, whether now or in the past or future." And I've stuck to that. I've come down on this issue where I have because I've done a lot of study on this, and more important, I have actual relationships with gay friends that have informed my view -- not by what they've said, but by who they are.

Where Christians trip up is making stuff like sexual orientation a central defining issue of whether you're in or out of the Kingdom. It isn't. Like Christ said, your actions - including sexuality - are an outward expression of your inner spiritual health. Like Paul said, if the fruit of the Spirit is present, the Spirit is there. It's an issue of aligning the heart with God and walking daily with Christ. Our sexual relationships - gay or straight - will naturally produce good fruit. If a gay person is exhibiting all of the spiritual fruits and consistently being more Christian than you (which I've experienced a number of time), then who's farther away from the Spirit -- them, or you?

To anyone that wants to make a serious inquiry of this, I can point to where I started - a book called "Stranger At The Gate" by Mel White (more at SoulForce.org).


Paul,
Good to hear from you. Hope all is well with your family. Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on this important subject, especially among Christians. I'll do my best to respond in love and respect. I believe continued dialog is important and I want that to continue between us as well as others I have discussed this issue with over the years. So, let's dig in!

Yes, I am doing my best to somehow connect with those frustrated with the church. Yet in doing so, I have to be true to the Bible or else I’m just spouting my own fancy ideas. And I do thank God when someone comes out of the gay lifestyle, especially when that happens because they have re-read the Bible and see if from a different perspective now.

Whether they chose that lifestyle or not isn’t really the point. And I am open to the idea that someone could “feel gay” since as long as they could remember, possibly even born into that. We are all born into sin, we live in a fallen world. Yet, when we recognize that is sin according to the Bible, then it’s our job to repent of that sin, ask God’s forgiveness and do our best to move past it.

When someone is in the gay lifestyle, they are in it. And yes, it is a lifestyle. Just like my heterosexual life with my family is a lifestyle. It’s the style of life I choose to live. I don’t see the harm in calling a gay lifestyle just that.

I am fully aware that the gay lifestyle is a lot of older lesbian couples, and nice people. Not every gay person wears a leather thong during the gay pride parade. I’m sure that is a misrepresentation of the gay community at large. Just like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson or Jim Baker (back in his PTL days) can be a misrepresentation of the Christian community at large.

Being gay does look like a lot of things, some “normal” but I can’t put “pastor” and “churchgoer” in that category. I have no idea how someone can call themselves a pastor and lead a church of gay people. I’m sure that pastor is loving, caring etc. but I don’t see how they can justify the life of the gay community with the Bible.

With all due respect Paul, I can’t agree with you that being gay in natural. Personally I don’t care how many mammals exhibit an exclusively gay/same sex attraction. We aren’t animals. We are human beings with intelligent minds capable of knowing what is right and wrong. How else are we supposed to interpret Romans 1:24-27?
“Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”
I’m sure you’ve got a “great” response to these verses. Yet I believe the human mind has a tremendous capacity for finding ways around even the most obvious statements of truth. When we read these verses in the context of all of Romans 1 especially from verse 18 on, we are reminded of our sin. These verses speak of God’s wrath being revealed against all godlessness and wickedness. If what is mentioned in verses 26-27 weren’t really that bad, then why is God’s wrath being revealed against such type of behavior?

I believe the "gay" facade is a thin veil for deep-seated frustration. I believe that God gave every human being a desire and need for love, intimacy and connection. For various reasons, often that need is not meet in a person (naturally) through a healthy relationship with their parents. Or they could have experienced divorce, abuse by a family member or someone close. Again, the reasons are varied and real, but the original need for love and connection is now being met in an unnatural way.

The folly of homosexuality is shown in its inability to reproduce the human species in keeping with the divine commandment (Gen 1:28). When God created man in his own image, male and female, that is how procreation works! Here is a crazy scenario; what where to happen if we allowed all the gay people to live together in their own safe, protected and tolerant communities? They would eventually die out or be forced to procreate as male and females or use modern medicine. I know heterosexual couples use artificial insemination also, but that is the exception, not the rule in the heterosexual communities.

What men do with God and his original plan has much to do with their own character, choices, rebellion and life style. And that is true for anyone going against God’s best in any area of their life, including living together and having sex outside of marriage which is unfortunately tolerated in the Christian church.

I believe the Bible is clear on the issue of homosexuality. To me, eating pork or shellfish, mixing fibers etc. is in a whole ‘nother category than human sexuality. In Acts 10:9-16 God made it clear that we can eat “unclean” things today. Eating pork or lobster (in that they are both bottom feeders) may not be the most healthy thing you can eat, but I’m sure people will eat pork, lobster and red meat and live well into their 90’s.

I know you have actual, real gay friends that you know, love and care for. That’s great. More Christians should. But does that make it right just because it is so real to them? What if I told you that I am sexually frustrated in my marriage (for whatever reason, thank God I’m not) and yet since God made me a sexual man, I’ll have to get that need met outside of my marriage. No one would by that line of reasoning. Just because something “seems so right” to a person, doesn’t necessarily make it right.

It is not up to me to decide who gets into heaven or not, whether it’s a sexual issue or not. You said it well Paul, “Like Christ said, your actions - including sexuality - are an outward expression of your inner spiritual health.” I couldn’t agree more! If your inner spiritual health is right with God, then the homosexual lifestyle would not be an option.

I also realize that you and I (and Mel White and many, many others) can go around and around with numerous points we bring up to justify our position. So, I’ll have to leave it up to God to change your heart or not. Meanwhile, I hope I’ve communicated my thoughts to you (and anyone else I’ve ever talked to about this issue) with love and respect. Ultimately it is the love of Jesus that brings people to God.

"Christian celebrity", SD gay pride, disrespecting God.

Tammy Faye Messner Dies after 'Larry King' Interview By Kevin Jackson
Christian Post Reporter
Mon, Jul. 23 2007 11:26 AM
Famed 80s televangelist Tammy Faye Messner passed away over the weekend at the age of 65, according to her manager on Saturday. The woman who was dealt a life of controversy, including a corrupted multi-million dollar ministry and uncontrollable addiction, took her last breath following a bout with cancer at her home near Kansas City, Mo., on Friday morning.
Messner appeared on Larry King Live the night before she died, and spoke about her faith in God and the difficulties that come with cancer. (To read the rest of the article, click here.)

I can remember back in about 1987 or so, Kelley and I were visiting with an older couple from our church. On their coffee table was a big glossy book. It was all about the PTL ministry that Jim and Tammy Baker were running at the time. I had never heard of it but something seemed oddly suspicious to me even back then. It goes back to what I've said before, the term "celebrity Christian" is an oxymoron. I don't know if the Bakers set out to be celebrities, but they ended up that way for better or worse. It's great to know that today Jim Baker has confessed and repentented for the PTL scandal. I hope and pray that Tammy Faye did her best to apologize for those controversial years.

Oddly enough, Tammy Faye became another celebrity of sorts in her last years...to the gay community, primarily men. I never really did figure out that connection, but somehow it was there. It seems like the gay community (being the minority that it is) does an amazing job of getting their message of tolerance out to the public.

As you may know, the annual gay pride parade was held over the weekend here in San Diego.

Gay parade a diverse display

Politicians and firefighters join bikers and drag queens
By Jeff McDonald
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

One wore nothing but leather briefs, sandals and a wide grin. Others favored hot pink Spandex with halter tops or barely-below-the-waist dresses that kept needing to be tugged down.
But most of the thousands of people who lined University Avenue yesterday for the San Diego gay pride parade went with – get this – T-shirts and shorts, denim jeans, cotton sun dresses and lots of plaid. It was the backyard-barbecue crowd celebrating diversity and equality and a fair shake for everything and everyone, with a predictable splash of corporate marketeering and political grandstanding tossed into the mix. (To read the rest of this article, click here.)

More and more, the gay community is doing their best to be accepted as "normal, just like everybody else." That's just not that case. They are normal in that they are human beings loved by God. They are also normal in their desire and need for love and intimacy. However, they are not normal on how that need is met in their lives.

Most Americans do not agree with this lifestyle and most Christians know that the Bible teaches against it. There is an interesting post further down on my blog site in response to the comments I made last week. I pointed out the parallels between those who believe in evolution and homosexuality in regards to dismissing what the Bible has to say. These comments come from a friend of mine, a Christian who is convinced that the Bible is not against homosexuality and that the vast majority of Christians who say it is are wrong. I'm going to do my best to respond to his post, so let me know what you think of all this.

(Paul, thanks for taking the time to read over my thoughts and post your own. I hope we can still remain friends even though we disagree.)

On Sunday I preached on the unpardonable sin, "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." Some of you may recognize this guy, on the left, Christopher Hitchens. He is known for his iconoclasm, atheism, antitheism, anti-fascism and anti-monarchism. He also wrote: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.

Here are a few of his quotes:

“When the earthquake hits, or the tsunami inundates, or the twin towers ignite, you can see and hear the secret satisfaction of the faithful. Gleefully they strike up: ‘You see, this is what happens when you don’t listen to us!’ With an unctuous smile they offer a redemption that is not theirs to bestow and, when questioned, put on a menacing scowl that says, ‘Oh, so you reject our offer of paradise? Well, in that case we have quite another fate in store for you.’”
“Islam is at once the most and the least interesting of the world’s monotheisms. It builds upon its primitive Jewish and Christian predecessors, selecting a chunk here and a shard there, and thus if these fall, it partly falls also. Its founding narrative likewise takes place within an astonishingly small compass, and relates facts about extremely tedious local quarrels.”

Turns out that many of the responses on Myspace to his book were Christians who completely disagreed with him. (To read more, go here.)

Once again the minority (whether it be the gay community or the atheists) do an amazing job of getting their gospel out. It's good to know that many Christians are willing to be just as vocal in their opposition.

Christopher's twin brother, Peter Hitchens is an outspoken journalists also, yet is a Christian. If you'd like to read about their differences, click here and here.

As I mentioned on Sunday, those who post their blasphemy challenge on Youtube or are as outspoken as Christopher Hitchens should be scared for their lives and eternity. The Bible clearly points out that those who are unrepentant will perish. Let's pray that all those who claim to deny God will come to their senses, repent and turn to God.

Harry Potter as Christ-like figure?

I ran across an interesting article today on the Harry Potter books. So far, we are not into the book series in our house. Zach, my oldest read the first 2 or 3 books and stopped. I know the books have been a topic of debate amongst Christians. The man who wrote this article has an interesting perspective. To read the article, click here.

I'd love to hear your perspective on this book series, if your kids (or you) have read them and what to make of the attempted analogies to the Christian faith.

Some heavy topics, yet ending in a light note, some pics of my boys at the beach.

Study: Hominids walked on two legs to save energy
ASSOCIATED PRESS, July 17, 2007WASHINGTON – (Article summary)

Why did humans evolve to walk upright? Perhaps because it's just plain easier. Make that “energetically less costly,” in science-speak, and you have the conclusion of researchers who are proposing a likely reason for our modern gait. In the latest attempt to find an explanation, researchers trained five chimpanzees to walk on a treadmill while wearing masks that allowed measurement of their oxygen consumption. “What we were surprised at was the variation,” he said in a telephone interview. “That was pretty exciting, because when you talk about how evolution works, variation is the bottom line, without variation there is no evolution.” Walking on two legs freed our arms, opening the door to manipulating the world, Raichlen said. “We think about the evolution of bipedalism as one of first events that led hominids down the path to being human.” Theirs is the latest of several explanations for walking upright. Among the others have been the need to used the arms in food gathering, the need to use the upper limbs to bring food to a mate and offspring and raising the body higher to dissipate heat in the breeze. The research was supported by the National Science Foundation and the L.S.B. Leakey Foundation.

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Wow, I'm so glad to finally learn why we chose at some random point to start walking upright. Although if you hit Garnet Ave. on most weekend nights after 12am you may wonder if we are not de-evolving with all the drunks stumbling around. If it's all about doing what comes easiest, the indeed we are de-evolving, doing what takes the least amount of effort. Hence, the nations child obesity rate and mindless hours in front of video games etc. We adults are guilty too. We drive one tenth of a mile to the store and watch plenty of TV ourselves. What really bugs me about the evolutionist approach to mankind is that it flies in the face of the creation account in Genesis. Either it all started with Adam and Eve, or we can consider any other option. I do believe in evolution as a process, but not as a point of origin for all living species. Lots of living creatures have evolved over time into variations of what they used to be, but not jumping from a fish to a bird.

I have the same problem with the homosexual community. (Which by the way, I don't hate. This is not a rant against homosexuals as much as it is an attempt to point out what the Bible has to say. I may not understand it on their level, but I do have love and understanding for any one who is in this lifestyle. I recognize the huge and intense struggle this is for many Christians, especially for those who feel they have not chosen this lifestyle.)

For someone to consider that homosexuality ok, they have to completely disregard what the Bible clearly says. What really bothers me is those Christians who claim a biblical basis for their homosexual lifestyle. I see parallels in the belief of evolution and homosexuality. To accept both is to disregard clear teaching from the Bible. Let's pray for those who are trying to find a Biblical basis for the homosexual lifestyle (in the midst of their honest struggle) as well as those trying to match evolution with the Biblical account of creation.

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BREAKING NEWS! I just ran across this article and thought I'd post it. It's an interesting read. I'd love to hear your comments.

Skepticism Over Validity of Ex-Gay Story Prompts 'Confessions'
By Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter

A former gay rights activist's "coming out" story about his path to becoming straight and his experience of a personal encounter with God has drawn skepticism, prompting the ex-gay to attempt to set the record straight. "[I]t wasn't internal homophobia that caused my so-called 'hatred' of my own homosexuality. It was God," said Michael Glatze, former editor of Young Gay America magazine, who recently announced in a column that he is now a heterosexual.

(To read the rest of the article, click here.)

Mahony apologizes, hopes S.D. settlesLos Angeles cardinal admits mistakes, looks for Brom to resolve claims soon

By Sandi Dolbee and Mark SauerSTAFF WRITERSand Matt KrasnowskiCOPLEY NEWS SERVICEJuly 16, 2007

Cardinal Roger Mahony apologized yesterday to hundreds of victims who will share a $660 million settlement, admitting he made mistakes in his handling of the clergy sex abuse scandal in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.Mahony also said he hopes San Diego Bishop Robert Brom will soon settle some 150 lawsuits.

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It's good to see the Catholic church at least taking a step in the right direction with the sexual abuse cases. Cardinal Mahony is making some sort of attempt to clear things up. However, if you've been reading the news, many of the victims are taking little solace in the monetary compensation. What a stinkin' mess. I'm sorry, but I've got to put this issue right up there with the Pope's announcement last week that the Catholic Church is the only true church etc. etc. (Which by the way has 17 comments now on my blog if you'd like to read the latest.) I realize that all Christians make mistakes, but it seems like the Catholic Church is in need of digging itself out of some big piles of trash. I don't mean to shoot arrows here, but this stuff just happens to be current. Believe me, when the Protestants (or some "great" evangelical leader) do/does something wrong, I'll be just as quick to point fingers in our direction and comment on that.

Wal-Mart to test Bible action figures in 425 stores
by Marcus KabelASSOCIATED PRESS11:29 a.m. July 17, 2007Wal-Mart said Tuesday it will test sales in some stores of biblical action figures whose makers say they are aimed at Christian parents who prefer their children play with Samson, David or Noah rather than with a comic book character or Bratz doll. The toys, based on biblical stories, include a 3-inch figure of Daniel in the lion's den, a 12-inch talking Jesus doll and 13-inch Samson action figure.

Not really sure what to say about this. I'm going to lump this into the category of "Jesus junk" that so many Christian bookstores sell today. The biggest problem I have with this is that it smacks of "Jesus on a tortilla". We don't even know what Jesus actually looked like. Most likely he was darker, shorter and more middle eastern than our western European images of him today. Don't expect to find the Jesus action figure jumping into the pool with the boys at our house.

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Finally, ending on a lighter note. Summer is here and that means weekend overnighters for the Lauer boys (and girl eventually when she gets a little older). Sunday after church we packed up the RV and drove down to the beach for an afternoon, evening and next morning of fun. We surfed, played in the Ocean, cooked hot dogs and S'mores over the fire and even got to share our meal with a homeless guy. I am truly blessed with a great family. Time with Kelley and the children keeps me focused on why I'm really here, to be the best Father and husband I can be.

This Pope's ok with me

I know these pics have been floating around the Internet for awhile, but you've got to see the humor in this. Especially in light of yesterday's news.

Where is this Catholic church and when is the next communion, I'm there!

Lets continue to pray for our Catholic brothers and sisters. Especially those who are true followers of Christ, as we all should be regardless of the Catholic-Protestant divide.

My Bus

Thanks for all the great thoughts on the Pope's announcement. On to a lighter subject. Here is a picture of my Bus at the OCTO show in Long Beach. This is a show we caravan up to from SD. It's pretty much the largest gathering on pre-67 Splittys on the West Coast. Thanks to the folks at Volksarama for talking all the great shots. If you are a Split Window Bus fan and would like to check out more great Buses from this show, click here.

I consider this Bus my sixth child and do my best to baby her. My love of Buses goes back a long way.

Those crazy Catholics

Pope affirms Catholicism as only way to salvation
Protestant leaders upset by Benedict's Vatican II correction
By Nicole Winfield ASSOCIATED PRESS
July 11, 2007

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy – Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released yesterday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.
The statement brought swift criticism from Protestant leaders.

That's exactly right! I'm a Protestant leader and I'm offering some sharp criticism myself right now! Nice move Mr. Pope dude. That's just what the non-Christian world wants to hear. Hmm, and I wonder why there is so much division in the church? I wonder why the non-church attenders out there don't want to start attending. This is certainly one of the reasons why. This is also one of the reasons so many unchurched people today want nothing to do with denominations.

In reality, the only true church is the church of Jesus Christ. Not the Catholic church, not Coastlands Church. Any church that follows the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, recognizes our sin and a need for a savior (who is Jesus) is the true church. The church is the people, not a Catholic or Protestant or a Baptist or a Lutheran. Martin Luther must be rolling over in his grave.

Please God, help us keep our focus on you and not any denominational (or non-denominational) leader. May we stay true to your Word.

Divorce and remarriage

For those of you who were in church on Sunday, thanks for sitting through such an important and heavy topic. (For those who missed, please takea moment and read through the sermon notes at the end of this email, thanks.) It's sobering to think how divorce has had an effect on almost everyone in our church. We learned that (as always) the Bible sets a high standard for us. In an ideal world, anyone who gets married would realize the seriousness of the vows they take and never divorce. Problem is, we have this nasty problem of sin in our world. Sin invades everything including our marriages and families. Hence the problem of divorce in and outside of the church.

Thankfully, God's grace is bigger than we can fathom. Somehow, in the midst of the rampant divorce rate in the church, God forgives. Anyone who has been affected by divorce can be forgiven and move on. I pray that God will give us grace as a church to lovingly work through these issues with people. Please pray for your church leadership as we do our best to look at each case individually and ask for God's wisdom as we give out advice. I'd love to hear any of your comments on this touchy subject. If there is something you'd like to add from Sunday's sermon that didn't get discussed, please do so here. We could get some healthy dialog going.

My prayer is that our church will exhibit love and grace as we hold to the high Biblical standard that God has for us in every area of our lives.

Hula girls

OK, how cool is this? We brought the entire Lauer brood to a party on Saturday. It was hosted by Mike and Karen Dodge, our friends, former neighbors and realitors. I also got to do their wedding. So, we were honored to be invited to their party. It was a thank-you to all their clients. The theme was "Hawaiian Luau" and the entire house was decked out. These Hula girls were probably the highlight of the day. Their show was about a half an hour long. The girls took us through a short tour of hula dancing from many different Polynesian cultures. It was great to escape reality for a half and hour and make pretend we were in Hawaii.

As always, it was great to be part of an event that involved primarily non-Christians. I pray our conversations help plant seeds to bring people closer to God.

Switchfoot concert

Tuesday night I took Zach and Ben to the Del Mar Fair to catch local favorites Switchfoot. What a crazy mess/crowd trying just to get into the fair. After the parking hassles and a very quick walk/run to the horsetrack, we arrived after only missing the first song. Switchfoot rocked the house. Zach was head-banging right along. Ben sat in my lap taking it all in, first concert and all. (Nice happy face on Ben for the pic, huh?) I look forward to many more concerts with my kids.

I like the balance Switchfoot is able to strike. They are not a "Christian band", rather Christians who are in a band. I'm guessing that a lot of the crowd there in Tuesday were Christians. I just hope the band can be recognized for it's talent in and outside of the Christian bubble. I think they actually have a wider audience by choosing to play not only Christian music festivals.

Great show, thanks guys. Keep up for great music and ministry.

Windansea surf music

For those of us enthralled with surf culture, The Surfaris and Windansea beach are right up there at the top of the list. The Surfaris are best known for their hits, "Surfer Joe" and "Wipeout." Any drummer worth his sticks had to learn "Wipeout" at some point. (Next time you find me around a drum and a pair of sticks, I'll play it for you.)

As many of you know, local pro surfer Emery Kauanui was recently killed. Windansea was one of his favorite places to surf. So, to honor his life there will be a gathering tomorrow (1-3pm) to pass out food and drinks and let God's love show to the local surf community. I encourage you to come down if you have the time.

At some point we do want the "unchurched" to visit our churches, but it's always a good idea for the church to go to the people. This is a great chance to do just that. My prayer is that whoever is at the beach will see the love in the Christians who participate and be inspired to visit a local church.

A few years back I got to play in a "surf band" right at Windansea beach myself. Back when Jenna Pabalate's dad was still alive he invited me to be a part of a band that played classic surf tunes while the Windansea surf club held it's annual Mennehune contest. I'll never forget that day. The conditions were ideal, the surf was pumping and there I was playing drums on a famous beach. I'm sure tomorrow there will be that same feeling.